BlueSuitMom.com
 Family   Career   Money   Health   Food   Travel   Community   Classes   

BlueSuitMom Message Boards

"Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"

Email this topic to a friend
Printer-friendly version of this topic		  
Previous Topic | Next Topic 
Home Conferences Rant & Rave (Protected)
Original message

Cookie1224 Click to EMail Cookie1224Click to check IP address of the poster Oct-23-02, 10:15 AM (EST)
"Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
Hi, I am new to the board but have a problem that I am somewhat distraught over. I am a full time working mother (lawyer at a large company) and have a 4 year old son. While my son seems to very popular at school and gets along well with all the other children in his class, a couple of the stay at home moms (the mothers of my son's two best friends) have been extremely unreceptive to me in terms of scheduling playdates or other social activities for thir children and my son. In fact, the only times I have even received return phone calls and requests for playdates from these women seems to be when they need free babysitting and know i have a fulltime nanny at my house. This situation has reduced me to tears more times than I care to admit.

I personally am friendly toward everyone, working or not, and have many friends among both ranks. Can anyone give me any advice?

Thank you.

Julie

  Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

 Table of contents

Lobby | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic
Messages in this topic

mswing10 Click to EMail mswing10Click to check IP address of the poster Oct-28-02, 03:53 PM (EST)
1. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
Julie: Try not to take this personal...these women are more than likely rude, users to everyone...not just you.
My advice? Call them on their behavior. People cannot change bad behavior that they may not be aware that they have. I think I would say something like this next time they call to use your nanny: "______ I would be happy to let you use my nanny for the afternoon. While I have you on the phone, I wanted to make a committed playdate for our sons. I've noticed that the last few times I've asked for a committment, you've either declined or not gotten back to me. Our sons really care about each other and I think it is important that we show them the importance of committment to an activity. So, when are you free?"
The sad thing is that these mothers are probably teaching their own children that using other people is ok. Good luck. Melissa
  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

summer15 Click to EMail summer15Click to check IP address of the poster Oct-28-02, 04:16 PM (EST)
2. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
My son is now in his third year at a Montessorri pre-school. The first year I cried because none of the other mothers talked to me, they just had their own exercise/class mom group. I also spent the whole year running into the class parties, etc., then running back to work. I never kept anyone happy (I am the only female equity partner in a NYC firm). The next year, I decided I would take the time to enjoy every school event, talk to whichever moms would talk to me and try not to get upset about never being included in the real discussions. This year, I tried talking to 2 moms with the goal of making at least 1 friend. It has actually worked. Last Friday I went to the leave for an out of town meeting. Amtrak was so delayed that I would have missed the meeting. I went home, took the call from there and went to school to pick up my son. When I saw the other mom, I explained that my meeting miss and invited them to go out to lunch. I've learned to go for the small wins and realize that unless you get to hang out all day, they will never let you in to the sorority.
  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

summer15 Click to EMail summer15Click to check IP address of the poster Oct-28-02, 04:23 PM (EST)
3. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
At times, I think stay at home moms can be some of the cruelest people around. They have no idea what it feels like to always be excluded. They see you, say "oh lets have a play date", you reply great and name a time and it never seems to work into their schedule. I asked my nanny and the teacher which children my son plays with and which have nannies and then arranged to play with them. In those instances where he plays a lot with children of stay at home moms, I spoke to my nanny, asked if if she would rather have the mom there or if I should just invite the child. Most often, she would rather just have the children. I then invite over the child, explain to the mom that she can just drop off the child. Some of my friends have offered some extra $ to my nanny. If they don't, I try to either come home a little early so she can go home early.
  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Cookie1224 Click to EMail Cookie1224Click to check IP address of the poster Oct-29-02, 01:03 PM (EST)
7. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
Hi...

It is so nice to get such a supportive note from a fellow New Yorker! I have taken your advice and already made a phone call to one of the moms who has seemed more receptive...she even seemed happy to hear from me.

Thanks again!

Julie

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

jane Click to EMail janeClick to check IP address of the poster Oct-28-02, 05:18 PM (EST)
4. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
Julie,
I stepped away from a professional career to be a full-time/at-home mom -- and hopefully some of my suggestions will help.

I think the discord begins when moms try to explain either why they work or choose not to work. Apparently no matter which road you choose research shows it's GUILT we all share.

The working moms often begin relationships by explaining that being with children all day would be "boring" to them or they couldn't stand the "stickiness of small children". It's hard to respond with dignity to this type of comment when you choose to be at home with your kids. Either way, most moms have spent hard hours beating themselves up over whichever decision they have made. Beating other moms up with our own rationalizations just doesn't lead to mutual respect. One thought is: Assume they accept your decision to work without criticism -- and they have fully accepted the sacrifices that come with their decision.

The other thing I learned is that at parties working moms were not willing to talk to full-time/at-home moms. Others assumed a full-time/at-home mom was uneducated and dull. I knew many full-time/at-home moms who were previously lawyers, doctors, and teachers -- and had held higher level degrees and professional jobs. Many of them had very exciting interests. One thought I would pass along is not to assume full-time/at-home moms are simple minded people. I read that many woman lawyers choose to be at full-time/at-home moms.

Well, all the leading Working-Mom-Type magazines predicted my kids would be complete failures if I stayed at home to raise them. The magazines explained full-time/at-home mom were "setting bad role models" for our children -- and they even had the empirical statistics to prove it! Now, one of my daughters has her sites and grades set on Stanford, the other on Harvard. So my last hope is -- that society stop predicting our kids will be failures. I am back at work at a job I absolutely love-love-love -- so I guess I am a survivor of those "boring and sticky" but also lovable and joyful days with the kids!

Hoping we can all find dignity and success with the decisions we make.

Best wishes making life-long friendships. After all someday we will just be "retired parents" looking for friendships that have mutual respect as the magical ingredient!

-j

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Cookie1224 Click to EMail Cookie1224Click to check IP address of the poster Oct-29-02, 01:00 PM (EST)
6. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
J-

I read your reply and found it to be quite judgmental. I have friends from all walks of life many who stay who, many who work full or part time and even some stay at home dads! I also resent the implication that I was one of those women who would tell the other mothers that I find staying at home too boring since I don't feel that way at all. In fact, i thoroughly enjoyed the two years i did spend at home with my son and cried almost constantly for six months when my family's finances required that i go back to work since for most of my marriage I have been the primary "breadwinner". It saddens me to think that when i have my next child, i won't be able to spend that time i spent at home with my son.

In addition, i consider my decision to work to be a personal one and have never discussed it with mothers who are not already "my life-long" friends. Further, as I am probably one of the most non-judgmental people you would ever meet, I think that whatever personal choices people make for themselves and make them happy are just great.

In closing, I am glad that your daughters turned out to be so successful...i trust that my son will grow up to be successful, too although I wasn't lucky enough to have full-time "boring and sticky" days.

Julie

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

generationmom Click to EMail generationmomClick to check IP address of the poster Oct-31-02, 02:33 AM (EST)
10. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
J,
I just wanted to comment on your balanced reply. I also wanted to say I admire you for having passion for the role you are playing when you are "in the moment". Many moms who leave corporate America with regrets forget that it will always be there if they decide to return!

I work from home and love the challenge of playing both roles. It's nice to know we have three choices now: work, stay home or do a combination of both. Maybe someday our options will be even broader.

Amy (www.GenerationMom.com)

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

aibn Click to EMail aibnClick to check IP address of the poster Oct-29-02, 09:01 AM (EST)
5. "I am writing a book on this very subject -- Please help!"
To Julie and all the Moms on this board:
I know what this is like. Until losing my job earlier this year, I was a full-time working mom. Most of the moms at my kids' preschool (I have a son, 5, and a daughter, 3)ignored me at birthday parties and other school-related events to the point that I stopped bringing my children to parties, and spent time with my own friends and their kids (who were not from my kids' school). Since losing my job, I have begun writing a book on the resentment, the judging, the envy and the overall bad blood between stay-at-home and working moms. (I am a writer and journalist by profession.) Women, who are supposed to be e/o's best friends, are, in many cases, their own worst enemies!
What do you moms think of this? You can reply to me directly at mommybook@yahoo.com with your thoughts. If you are interested in participating in my research, I can email or snail mail you a survey on the topic as well. Tell your mom friends (SAHM and WM) about my book and please think about participating.
Thank you! Allison Nazarian
  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Cookie1224 Click to EMail Cookie1224Click to check IP address of the poster Oct-29-02, 01:05 PM (EST)
8. "RE: I am writing a book on this very subject -- Please help!"
Hi Allison-

Great idea and I would be happy to help.

I will email you directly!

Julie

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

generationmom Click to EMail generationmomClick to check IP address of the poster Oct-31-02, 02:23 AM (EST)
9. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
Julie,
Just a few thoughts from someone who has both worked and stayed home. (Now I work from home and both sets of Moms have absolutely no idea what to do with me )....

First, the other Moms may not understand how their actions appear. In my community, a lot of Moms run into each other at parks, ice cream parlors, libraries or local community events. The play dates are very informal. Maybe they assume you'll just show up and join the rest of the crowd.

Second, some Moms may not be that structured. We live in cul-de-sac neighborhoods where the kids play in common areas like greenbelts, sectioned-off (with "caution, kids at play" signs) parts of the street or a particular neighbor's front or back yard. Sometimes I have better luck getting my son a play date by just knocking on the neighbor's door and inviting their son to go on a bug hunt with us.

Last, keep in mind these moms may feel insecure around you. I recently befriended a Mom at my son's school. I invited her to join a "coffee talk" group with the other Moms. The next day my phone rang off the hook. Apparently the other Moms didn't like her and wanted to know if I was on "her" side. I was quickly reminded that we are all the same girls we were 15-20 years ago -- insecure, in search of our peers' approval. The only difference is our sagging bodies and wrinkles. (Funny, I thought wisdom and maturity was supposed to come with age.) I'm also thankful that I do work at least part time, as my response was: "I have deadlines, I really don't have time to think about this."

Good luck to you. I know it's a tough nut to crack. Remember, underneath all the labels and stereotypes, we're all just moms who love our kids.

Amy (www.GenerationMom.com)

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

WillsMom Click to EMail WillsMomClick to view user profileClick to check IP address of the poster Oct-31-02, 10:04 AM (EST)
11. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
Jane and Amy, I appreciated your replies. Your thoughts on this matter strongly echo mine, and I don't believe they're judgmental at all.

I'm a stay at home mom who was previously a high-paid IT professional. I have a degree in computer science and English and am fairly well-read. Yet many working moms at parties now treat me as if I am some kind of simpleton. On the other hand, I'm sure many of them really feel like they're outsiders in my world, too.

What you and others have said is so true: We're really our own worst enemies. Many women who have chosen to stay home regret it because they feel their work isn't valued by society and they let insensitive people's comments get to them. And many women who have chosen to continue working regret it because they worry they aren't devoting enough time to their families and they let insensitive people's comments get to them.

What's helped me is just being accepting of my choice. It's as important to me spiritually as continuing to work is for many moms who choose to do so for more than just financial reasons.

The one or two times an insensitive working mom has asked me what I do all day, I've said "I do what you do on the weekends when your husband isn't there to help you. All day. Every day." That generally shuts them down.

By the same token, I show the working moms I know the respect they also deserve. They work hard at a paying job all day, then come home and generally do about 90% of the child raising and household running, unless they have extraordinary husbands (don't mean to be male-bashing - just an observation). In other words, they do everything I do, PLUS hold down a full-time paying job.

I think we all just need to feel more comfortable in our choices, or as a line in an old M*A*S*H episode I always remember goes, get off our own backs. Anyone who finds that impossible to do perhaps needs to rethink the choice she made, because it most likely wasn't the right one for her.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

jane2 Click to EMail jane2Click to check IP address of the poster Nov-01-02, 01:48 PM (EST)
16. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
Barb, Amy and Julie,
I was an IT professional as well and could not continue working the required 60+ hours and also raise a new baby. At that time there were not many options, and the entire company was focused on a release date for software (just a few weeks ahead of the competition). You were expected to keep up at all costs with the grueling hours or you might jeapardize the companie's competitiveness. By the 8th month of pregnancy I had only gained 3.5 pounds and the doctor told me if I continued to work those hours the baby just wouldn't make it. I had defined myself solely by my job so this was a harsh thing for me to come to terms with.

Two of the valuable things I saw at-home moms do with their time were:
1. Bring their expertise to the classrooms. Many had degrees in economics, medicine, teaching, matematics etc. They served as both presenters and tutors and 5 well-educated moms in a neglected classroom brought up the educational level in the classtoom tremendously. This may be unpaid - but a valuable social contribution.

The other thing that happened is, the at-home moms I knew began starting their own businesses. Talk in the coffee shops turned from the school play to business licences and per foot charges for space rentals. There's lots books on 2 men starting businesses in a garage. We should see a book out on "a woman, and a baby in a garage". The woman who started DA Consulting in Texas was an at home mom who quit her job to have a baby --then went on to construct a multimillion dollar training company who did business with oil companies internationally.

Instead of categorizing these "at home" or "working moms", I think we should use terminology like "innovative/intelligent women who strive for new solutions". America is proud of the high percentage of women entrepeneurs. I met a few of them hatching their plans in the playgrounds.

That's the strength, vision and self confidence I hope we can all strive for.
-jane

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Cookie1224 Click to EMail Cookie1224Click to check IP address of the poster Oct-31-02, 10:56 AM (EST)
12. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
Hi Amy-

Thanks for your reply...unfortunately, where I live, formal, structured playdates seem to be the norm rather than flexible, spur of the moment get togethers...but I am going to keep trying and learn to live with the rejection and try not to take it personally. It is hard though, because i see that my child gets very disappointed when he doesn't get to socialize with some of the kids that he is so close at school.

I think some of the others on this board may have misinterpreted my initial post. I have nothing against stay at home moms...in fact, i was one for two years and only came back to work when i found it to be a financial necessity. Now, I happen to love my job (i had never even liked a job before) where I also happen to have alot of flexibility and for those reasons, I can't imagine giving it up. Many of my friends are stay at home moms and they are wise, warm, interesting and intelligent women. I never judge others based on their personal choices...my frustration is that I just wish others wouldn't judge me and then totally discount me for my personal choices.

I'm hoping that things turn around soon...I have only lived in my little town in the NY suburbs for a little over a year and my other friends think I just happened to unfortunately end up with a class where the stay at home moms were really cliquey. My son is with some new kids this year and the moms, stay at home and workers, just seem to be a friendlier bunch overall. So I have my fingers crossed!

Take care and thanks for your support.

Julie

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

WillsMom Click to EMail WillsMomClick to view user profileClick to check IP address of the poster Nov-01-02, 08:15 AM (EST)
13. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
Julie, you're right - I did misinterpret your first post. I really didn't mean to attack you or anyone else who is up against the same non-receptiveness you are in scheduling play-dates. I just have my own axe to grind about this debate, and I went ahead and grinded it without fully understanding your problem. Sorry about that!

Hope the moms in your son's new class are much more receptive than the last ones were. I think Melissa was right - he just fell into a particularly rude group, unfortunately. And calling them on their unacceptable behavior was very good advice. That's something I've been trying to do since our son was born. I'm one of those wishy-washy types who's let people take advantage of me my whole life, because I've never wanted to make anyone mad at me. I've been working on confronting some family members and longtime friends about their selfish, rude behavior, myself. It's been a very difficult transition - old habits die hard! On the other hand, it's also difficult when you're trying to make things nice for your child, as you are, and are having to put your feelings aside to appease someone you normally wouldn't want to.

Anyway, best of luck to you.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Cookie1224 Click to EMail Cookie1224Click to check IP address of the poster Nov-01-02, 10:33 AM (EST)
14. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
Hi WillsMom-

Thanks for your note...and I am glad that we cleared up the miscommunication. I have read some of your posts on some of the other message boards and you sound like my kind of person!!! I was particularly appreciative of your post where you said that working moms do have it harder because as you said...I do work at my job fulltime and then come home and cook, clean, do laundry, grocery shop, play with my child, read to my child, bathe my child ....not all in one night, of course. My husband is helpful in many respects...more so than many of my friends husbands...but seems no matter what the circumstance, the bulk of household responsibility always falls on the woman!

I hope to find some moms (both working and stay at home) in my area who are as sensible, down to earth and as smart as you!

Again, thanks for your kind words...its nice to know that there are people who understand!

Julie

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

WillsMom Click to EMail WillsMomClick to view user profileClick to check IP address of the poster Nov-01-02, 12:29 PM (EST)
15. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
You're quite welcome, Julie!

And ain't that the truth - that the bulk of the household responsibilities fall on the woman. Why is that? I really don't understand it, especially when both partners are working full-time outside the home. I guess we still haven't come as long a way as we thought. :-\

I'm extraordinarily lucky, because I have the very rare husband who truly believes it should be a team effort. And he's working full-time in a very stressful job to boot! Glad to hear your husband is helpful, too. That makes such a huge difference.

Thanks for the very nice compliments. I'm Barb, by the way. Sorry I haven't posted my "real" name before.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

jane2 Click to EMail jane2Click to check IP address of the poster Nov-01-02, 02:35 PM (EST)
17. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
To all the moms on the message board-

Since Julie was brave enough to express her hurt and frustration on the opening posting, I will try to also find courage and express mine.

When I was in college in the mid 70s I was an advocate for the womens' movement. It was a brand new movement with articles only in the most off-the-mainstream journals. For women who grew up in the 50s the fact that women were gaining "a voice" was very exciting.

Later, as one of the first women in the computer industry, the handful of women there had to constantly remind the engineers that we were to be treated fairly and as intelligent equals.

Several years ago as I was transitioning back to work - a woman told me that because I was an at-home mom I was (verbatum) "an insult to the women's movement".

That moment has stuck painfully with me for 5 years.

Now my teenage girls ask me if I am a feminist. (They are striving for professional jobs and believe in being strong).

I sadly tell them I once was, but I get the feeling that the women's movement kicked me out. I tell them I might get my card back -- since I have returned to work. But I am not sure I want to endorse something that excludes other women.

Do you think it is possible for an at home mom to be a feminist? Is it possible for us to raise strong and independent daughters?


I hope that the womens' movement isn't excluding at home moms. When did this happen? What do you think?

Thanks,
-jane

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Cookie1224 Click to EMail Cookie1224Click to check IP address of the poster Nov-01-02, 02:49 PM (EST)
18. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"

Jane-

I absolutely think that it is possible for an at home mom to be a feminist. My belief is that the whole point of the women's movement was to give women a voice and give women choices of their own and the independence to make them without being judged by society. I think instead of beating each other up, women should recognize and respect each others choices and treat each other with kindness and compassion regardless of personal decisions.

In my opinion, the best way for us to raise strong and independent daughters and in my case, a son, who respects and admires such strength and independence, is to teach our children about respect and compassion.

I really think all this backlash and anger between the working and at home moms needs to stop. We are all just people trying to do what we think is best for ourselves and best for our families, isn't that a strong enough tie to bond us together?

Just my thoughts.

Julie

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

jane2 Click to EMail jane2Click to check IP address of the poster Nov-01-02, 05:49 PM (EST)
19. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
Julie,
Thank you so much. I really appreciate hearing this.

I think these postings, where we allow these hurts to be healed, is a first step.

I don't know if you read my other posting about my daughter Juliet's boyfriend -- who is a son of a working mom - but he is such a caring and pure spirited boy and gives so much happiness to my family. He is proof to me that children of working moms can be fabulous.

I think a lot of the time when at home moms seem like they are snubbing working moms it's because they don't actually know how to defend their position and still be loyal to progressive modern beliefs. So the safest thing to do is turn away.

I can't wait till industry lets women move in and out of the workplace with ease -- and women once again support each other. Your email is a major step forward for me.

Thanks,
-jane

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

WillsMom Click to EMail WillsMomClick to view user profileClick to check IP address of the poster Nov-01-02, 07:17 PM (EST)
20. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
Jane, I strongly agree with Julie - an at home mom can still be a feminist and can raise strong, independent daughters. And, like Julie said, sons who respect and appreciate those traits in women.

I was one of the early women in the computer industry, too. I started out in the mid-80s, so we were starting to establish ourselves. But there was (and still is to some extent) a glass ceiling. I started out at NCR in Ohio, and there was only one woman in my Engineering division who was a middle-manager, compared with about 15 men. And there were none in executive positions. We've come a long way since then, but we're still vastly outnumbered in that field.

In any event, both your posts were very well-written and you made excellent points. What a hateful thing for that woman to have said to you, by the way, Jane. Just as it's hateful for those two at-home moms to have shunned Julie at the expense of their sons' feelings. We really all just want the same things, after all. It's a shame more women can't see that.

- Barb

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LynnPerley Click to EMail LynnPerleyClick to check IP address of the poster Nov-03-02, 07:58 AM (EST)
23. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
Barb and Julie - I think some of this attitude may be affected soon by economic reality. The vicious SAHM vs working mom debates seemed to reach their peak at the height of the tech boom of the 90's in my experience. Recent corporate layoffs and such have caused so many families to change their lifestyles. I am aware of a very few ("online" friends) where the wife, who chose to stay at home when the children were small, has much more employable skills in today's economy, and she returned to work full time when the husband got laid off, and now the husband essentially freelances from home and has taken on some of the child rearing responsibility. Have you noticed anything like this in your area?

Lynn

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

WillsMom Click to EMail WillsMomClick to view user profileClick to check IP address of the poster Nov-03-02, 09:17 AM (EST)
24. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
Lynn, I see a trend towards more moms (or dads) staying at home largely because of the current economy, yes. Especially when one or both parents are/were in a tech field, as is my case. When one or both parents is a non-tech professional, like an attorney, the current economy often neccessitates a return to the workforce, as is Julie's case (hope you don't mind my speaking for you, Julie).

I've seen several cases where either the mom or the dad was laid off, and then ended up staying home after pounding the pavement for a while and finding that there just aren't any tech jobs out there, nor comparable jobs that pay enough to warrant paying for day care and all the rest. In one case, both parents have ended up staying at home since their lay-offs. He has become a consultant, and actually does quite well, and she carries out most of the childraising and household running responsibilities. But he's there to give her a break now and then when things are slow for him, so it works out nicely for them.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

jane2 Click to EMail jane2Click to check IP address of the poster Nov-04-02, 11:44 AM (EST)
27. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
Julie,

Thanks so much for the support.

The early struggle to get established in the computer industry had some tense moments. It was hard to complain to male managers when sexist jokes were told at staff meetings etc. (One always wondered if complaining would lead to a loss of salary reward). These behaviors are seldom seen now thanks to formal anti-harassment laws. I am pleased to meet someone who remembers those days and yes there still is a serious glass ceiling in IT.

I also appreciated the working moms who came after me --they continued to fight for women's rights. Slowly I started hearing about flex-time, job sharing and working from home --and all I could think was WOW I wish that had been an option for me.

One of the things that worries me now is the prejudice that the at-home/at-work debate sponds -- The four classic slurrs against minorities can be seen in this debate: "lazy and dumb" as pinned on at-home moms and "selfish and conniving" as pinned on working-moms. These accusations are not only mean - but historically they are a precursor to the loss of civil liberties (as society gets the green light to disregard the rights of these groups of people) -- I personally think the increased loss of rights we see documented by working moms who are pregnant may be in part a sad result of this stereotyping rhetoric which makes small-minded definitions of women , by women, acceptable behavior.

The most constructive thing women can do right now is look for that which is good in others- and speak highly of other women - regardless of what they choose at that given moment in time.

-jane

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LynnPerley Click to EMail LynnPerleyClick to check IP address of the poster Nov-02-02, 07:58 PM (EST)
21. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
Hi Julie, we ran into this when we moved to a smaller town. I noticed that the other moms started shying away if I mentioned I was an attorney. DH noticed this also, but it was not quite as bad(he's a Federal agent - that usually sparks some interest from someone). The same thing would happen when we would invite our son's best friends over for a birthday party or to play - the parents would get intimidated by our house. Truthfully, DH and I have more in common with the blue collar workers our kids go to school with. We drive older paid for cars, don't wear fancy clothes, we are just every day folks who happen to be professionals. Neither one of us mention our careers until we must - but people just seemed to be intimidated. It took about two years of seeing the same people at our kids' activities until finally people started warming up. Now they know we are not snobs, we are not looking down on anyone, I don't care if the mom works or not, etc.
  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

WillsMom Click to EMail WillsMomClick to view user profileClick to check IP address of the poster Nov-03-02, 07:48 AM (EST)
22. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
Hi, Lynn. I can kind of relate, even though I'm an at home mom. My husband is an airline pilot. Although that sparks a lot of interest as far as small talk goes, people tend to be kind of intimidated by it. But then they find out we drive older, used cars, don't dress particularly fancy, and do our own cleaning and yard work and they relax a bit.

While there probably truly are some at home moms who just don't believe working moms are doing the "right thing" and are judging them, more often than not, it's probably a case of being intimidated by, and maybe even a little jealous of, working moms. I think some at home moms worry that working moms will see them as boring or simple-minded, so they shun them to avoid getting hurt.

I find myself in kind of a no-man's land. While I've been able to maintain friendships with the working moms with whom I used to work, I've had trouble making friends with some of the working moms I've met recently. Not for lack of trying, and I'm always respectful, and admiring even, of them. I think they've been kind of burned by at home moms before and so think, "Oh, great. Another one." Similarly, I've maintained friendships with the at home moms I've always known, but I've had trouble making friends with some of the ones I've met recently because I can't relate to their anti-working mom attitudes.

Oh, well. You can't be friends with everyone, I guess. But it's frustrating when you see someone you have some things in common with, mainly your children, and you just can't break through the barriers.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

aibn Click to EMail aibnClick to check IP address of the poster Nov-03-02, 01:21 PM (EST)
25. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
Dear Moms,
As I posted on this board earlier, this debate not only hits home but it is interesting to me professionally. I am currently writing a book on this very topic, and would love for all of you to weigh in. Please email me directly at mommybook@yahoo.com and I will send you my questionnaire. I was a full-time working mom who became a work-at-home mom (I am trying to start a web design and content service) not by choice but bc of two layoffs in one year. There are a lot of issues here, but what I am most interested in for the purposes of my book is the attitudes of and relationships between WMs and SAHMs. Clearly, none of it is simple or cut-and-dried. Let me know what you think and email me with your email address if you wish to participate.
Thanks, Allison
mommybook@yahoo.com
  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

jane2 Click to EMail jane2Click to check IP address of the poster Nov-04-02, 11:18 AM (EST)
26. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
Allison-
I would love to see a book -- but I am less interested in a recounting of the disagreements and more interested in a book that proposes solutions.

Solutions that look at:
1. Reframing our language.
They say some languages have many more meanings to the word love than just one. Similarly I think we need more catagories of moms than two. Lets have 1000 types of moms one can choose to identify with. I have always disliked the couch potato connotation of "at home mom" (I was seldom actually home at this time.) Can we start by fixing that? As I read the posted memos most moms are a "bit at home, a bit at work, a bit at professional development classes" etc. I once met a mom who arranged to take a year sabbatical from work - as her son wasn't reading well in the 2nd grade. She wanted to make sure he didn't fall behind or lose his confidence. I thought her attitudes of making her decision based on the needs of the moment - (rather than a one size fits-all-polemic) was so wonderful. And - I thought her employer would save money by saving her position for her.

2. A documentation of women who have a "blended solution" to succeeding and being happy. (I am in the trainig field and we spent years debating if class-room or on-line courses are more effective. We have now found that a mixture of both leads to success.) For women I think that a balanced life should also be a do-able life. I was sometimes both amazed and afraid for the women who succeeded in doing everything at once. I truly worried about their health.

We do need some fresh literature and I am very proud to read the open minded comments and supportiveness on this discussion board.
-jane

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

jane2 Click to EMail jane2Click to check IP address of the poster Nov-04-02, 07:09 PM (EST)
33. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
Allison,

I had an idea I wanted to send your way. It was an idea for the book title.

There was a computer book called "The Third Wave" about new technologies and I thought you might consider a title like "Third Generation Moms" or something like that.

These moms would be not the at home moms (1st generation), or the working moms (2nd generation) but were moms who defined themselves as individuals who moved in and out of the work place with confidence (in their own choices, and non judgementalness of others' choices.)

I hope you can bring new language and terms to this discussion as a way of breaking free of duelistic and divisive language structures.

-jane

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

aibn Click to EMail aibnClick to check IP address of the poster Nov-05-02, 08:54 AM (EST)
39. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
Jane, You're onto something very interesting. Aside from the language -- old terms in a world with all sorts of new choices and combinations -- the "Third Wave" idea is very interesting. Thanks for that.
Allison
  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Cookie1224 Click to EMail Cookie1224Click to check IP address of the poster Nov-04-02, 12:43 PM (EST)
31. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
Hi Lynn-

Loved your comments about the older paid for cars and having more in common with the blue collar workers....I feel the same way! One problem that I have noted in my community is the assumption on the part of the stay-at-hom moms that those of us who work do so because we are poor and they are not. In my community, it is a real status symbol to be at home and in my experience, the families with working moms (both professional and blue collar) just seem more down to earth to me. Maybe this is something that is just endemic to the NYC suburbs. I don't know.

I just wish all Moms out there could learn to live with the choices of others and accept people for who they are...i think this mentality could only help all of our children in the long run!!!

Julie

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

mahonc Click to EMail mahoncClick to check IP address of the poster Nov-04-02, 12:08 PM (EST)
28. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
I wonder why we are so worried about ourselves being accepted? Isn't this about our children and their friendships? I am a working mom and interact with both working moms and stay at home moms - we are have our issues - but don't even think about myself being accepted - only my daughter and her interactions....
  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

aibn Click to EMail aibnClick to check IP address of the poster Nov-04-02, 12:20 PM (EST)
29. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
Mahonc,
That is an excellent point, one that I too have thought about. It's like if we are all truly so concerned with our kids (which of course we are), then why are we so involved in this debate that is all about us and not at all about the kids? Our innate need to be accepted and to neatly fit into a mold may be part of the answer.

- Allison
mommybook@yahoo.com

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Cookie1224 Click to EMail Cookie1224Click to check IP address of the poster Nov-04-02, 12:35 PM (EST)
30. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"

Mahonc-

I think you make a good point. My initial frustration with some of these women came from the fact that my son was disappointed that he wasn't getting to have playdates with his favorite friends from school. In fact, I would often become enraged because I felt that these women were only thinking about themselves and I could not understand how anyone could disappoint or hurt a three year old baby!!! Then, of course, a certain degree of human nature kicks in and old insecurities start to surface and I start to wonder "what's wrong with me?"..."why won't they accept me?" and then you start to doubt your own choices...

My new MO is try to not take any of it personally and I am now trying to put myself above the fray and cultivate friendships for myself and my child with the people who are more accepting of differences...it is my sense that the parents who impart more compassion, sensitivity and tolerance of diversity to their children will end up having the type of kids I want my child around anyway.

Julie

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

mahonc Click to EMail mahoncClick to check IP address of the poster Nov-04-02, 09:27 PM (EST)
35. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
Your last line says it all -
  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

WillsMom Click to EMail WillsMomClick to view user profileClick to check IP address of the poster Nov-05-02, 08:18 AM (EST)
38. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
I agree, Julie. Your last line most definitely says it all!
  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

jane2 Click to EMail jane2Click to check IP address of the poster Nov-04-02, 01:00 PM (EST)
32. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
Moms,
I have been trying to formulate a quality answer to the original posting and wanted to start out by saying the at home moms in this situation were very rude to Julie, but also, by not honoring their childrens' choices in friends - they have made a more serious mistake by sending a message to their children that their choices will not be honored or respected. It's hard to believe kids see through this kind of control - but when they reach the teenage years any (historical) controlling behavior by parents is fuel for rebellion later. (I say this with great seriousness as some of the forms of teenage rebellion are scarey.)

In retrospect - I really believe we always have a choice between making the decisions for our kids and getting our way (which takes 30 seconds)...or taking 15 minutes to listen to what they want and finding someway of respecting their thoughts on the matter. Its not enough to believe in our children, they have to be taught to believe in themselves.

I wanted to give some peeks into the at-home mom social structure in hopes this will help (more on this later). I was an at home mom for 13 years although I worked from home and part time throughout this time period. (I was so bonded with the at-home group I never retrofitted my self definition).

The at home moms spend large amounts of time together sharing all aspects of their lives. A lot of deep personal trust gets developed over the years and these bonds become as thick as ropes. (Now that I am taking tribal-dancing classes I hear about the centuries old bonding that women have traditionally had, I am intrigued by this social pattern). These women are bonded as an extended family in an ancient tradition that even pre-dates language.

As a working mom it is harder to become part of it - but as they get to know you they will start including you. Smart moms let their kids pursue the friendships of their choice -regardless of what the other child's mom has chosen.

The work place is so different -- where you can't share your personal life except with a few select friends. The workplace is essentially a competitive environment where you need to keep your guard up, while the at-home group was a place where you could laugh or cry pretty openly, you could share your vulnerabilities with the other moms and they would offer to help.

Trust takes time - and it is logistically harder to find the frequent, spontaneous and casual contact with a working mom ---but a working mom and at home-mom can have a lasting friendship if they have a lot of shared values and find the time to build a communication path that is safe enough to be honest about both successes and failures.

-jane

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

jane2 Click to EMail jane2Click to check IP address of the poster Nov-04-02, 07:37 PM (EST)
34. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
Julie,
I go back to work tomorrow so thought I would say bye to you and all the moms. This discussion has been really great! Thanks for starting it. I have developed a great affection and respect for the women on this discussion board.

The work I do is still really demanding with 60 - 80 hour work weeks but I love creating online courses since they combine my three areas of interest: teaching, art and writing. My kids seem like they are independent now, so life is moving along fine.

Here's some work I did for Oracle:
http://technet.oracle.com/products/ilearning/ilaflash/oracle_ilearning_review.htm

Wishing all of you joy with your families and your work. Whether you are an at-home or an at-work mom, smell the roses each day!
-jane

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

WillsMom Click to EMail WillsMomClick to view user profileClick to check IP address of the poster Nov-05-02, 08:17 AM (EST)
37. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
Very well-said, Jane. I agree that there is something about the bond formed between moms who work out of the home that is thick as rope. My next-door neighbor has a nine-year-old son and has been out of the workplace all those years. I must rather shamefacedly admit that during that time when I was still working outside the home and did not have a child yet, I found it difficult to relate to her on a number of levels. Still, we had many interests and background things in common, so we forged a friendship anyway. Now that I am home, too, I've become much closer to her. Not because she and I have been through any more stress than the working moms we know have, but because we can get together in each other's homes on a regular basis and vent all of our frustrations honestly and openly.
  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LynnPerley Click to EMail LynnPerleyClick to check IP address of the poster Nov-04-02, 10:50 PM (EST)
36. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
>I wonder why we are so
>worried about ourselves being accepted?
> Isn't this about our
>children and their friendships?
>I am a working mom
>and interact with both working
>moms and stay at home
>moms - we are have
>our issues - but don't
>even think about myself being
>accepted - only my daughter
>and her interactions....

Yes, but in my situation - and especially when you are talking about a 3 year old - I was looking for moms who I could be at least casual friends with as well. I would not let a 3 year old on an unsupervised playdate, and if I'm going to be sitting somewhere with another mom watching our kids play I would hope we could find something to chat about! The awkward silences are hard to deal with. Perhaps its just me. I had also just relocated across the country, and my close friendships were with people I did not work with. I was hoping to find something similar. It's gotten much easier now that the kids are older. I think it is just due to the passage of time. I guess they have seen my kids enough they know my kids are well behaved, and the kids get invited over even when we are not "friends" with the parents.

Lynn


  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

mbirney Click to EMail mbirneyClick to check IP address of the poster Mar-25-03, 03:33 PM (EST)
40. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
Hello, I'm new to this site and this "response" has probably been covered in the many replies but I'm feeling too lazy to browse--the individuals to whom you refer are probably rude and thoughtless users and behave that way to everyone with whom they come into contact--believe me, their kids' teachers, other family members, church acquaintences, etc. are more than likely being treated the same way! It's not you, it's them.
  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

amyknight Click to EMail amyknightClick to check IP address of the poster May-20-03, 03:02 PM (EST)
41. "Why cry over mean moms?"
I'm new, too, and I'm finding this thread pretty bewildering.

Why would you want to be friends with people so narrowminded as to see you as a "working mom" or "stay-home mom" before looking at you as a person? Frankly, they sound awfully boring. If someone at a party wants to get me tagged with a label before having a conversation with me, that's not a promising start. And if another mom is so inconsiderate of other people's schedules that she's not willing to say "oh, my schedule's more flexible than yours, when's good for you," why bother with her?

<shrug> Same-age playmates are nice, but so are grownups, animals, younger and older kids, family, one's own company. While there are developmental reasons to get your kids together with others their age, they'll be with those kids at least part of the day by the time they're 4 or 5. Before that, there are probably activity groups you can enroll in without waiting to be invited.

I don't see any good reason to beat yourself up in order to connect with mothers of children your kid's age. If your child is still too young to ride a bike or take a bus to see a friend without you and the untoward mother-chilliness, that problem will solve itself in a little while. In the meantime, hey, this is one of life's lessons. Not everyone gets along, and sometimes people are exclusive for the hell of it. There are also some people, and some times, where it's not worth the effort and cost required to win their friendship. Maybe your kid will grow up to be a little nicer than these moms, and maybe in the meantime he'll develop interests of his own so he can seek out friends who share his passions, regardless of their age, location, etc.

amy

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

tbis Click to EMail tbisClick to check IP address of the poster Jun-16-03, 09:37 PM (EST)
42. "RE: Why cry over mean moms?"
You really have no business responding to these posts.
You are not qualified as a mother to give this kind of advice.
  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

srvelas Click to EMail srvelasClick to check IP address of the poster Aug-24-06, 12:21 PM (EST)
43. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
Julie,

I worked in corporate america for 16 years which 5 of those years with young children and was judged as a not fit mom, because I had to work. Then I did take the opportunity to stay at home and raise my children for another 8 years, and was judged as a person without a brain from working mom's because I stayed at home. The transition was very difficult for me. What I learned was there is always someone out there willing to judge what I do and how I do it. In truth we are all individuals with diffirent needs and challenges. We can't make everyone else happy, so I will do the best for my individual and family situation. I recommend that you do the same, and feel confident that you and your family can make the best decision.

So keep your chin up, keep smiling, and know mommy politics are brutal, but don't let them take advantage of you.

Now I am trying to transition back to the work force "find a job" how do I qualify that time I took off of gainful employement, to raise my kid's. I think domestic engineer is an out-dated term.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

kaceyandthebrats Click to EMail kaceyandthebratsClick to check IP address of the poster May-16-07, 08:44 AM (EST)
44. "RE: Working Moms v. Stay at Home Moms"
The stay-at-home-moms should be receptive you. AS a stay-at-mom I would think that the only problem they have is maybe you may not be around as much as you would like. But the SAH moms should not dis on you.

Kaceyandthebrats

www.workathomeunited.com/kaceyandthebrats

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top


Lock | Archive | Remove

Lobby | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic
Powered by DCF2000 ©1997-2000 by DCScripts. All rights reserved.